Exclusivity is good- to a point- I agree. You want it exclusive enough to weed out those who aren't serious, but to leave it open enough for a steady stream of new blood.

I think the idea for officers is a great one- but I also propose term limits... I think one problem that leaderships often face is a lust for acclaim that comes with getting too comfortable in their role. Rotating those roles out helps keep that at bay.

Will toss in more comments as I think of them ;)

For some reason I can not write past a certain point in the text area, the scroll moves the curser back up and erases what I have already written!!!

I think that the most important thing is that people meet and participate, take ownership of the order and contribute to its structure. We will never be able to completely guess what the future of the order will be but we can at least make it predictable.

Where the duck is everyone else on this subject? Do all people involved have the password?

My main concern is we leave room for people to grow magically and gain valuable experience in working witha group of magician who worry not about upholding some spiritual/transendental belief, but instead work toward results and breaking barriers/liberating them selves.

Anomaly

Fuck Ego fights!!! I really care nothing about this shit but I see the potential for abuse in a system like this. I believe that the IOT attempted to deal with this by basing the grade structure on accomplishment and not claims to power.

I think that an order based around Hands On Chaos Magic would look something like a creative meditation based order. There is a good attitude towards experimentation in your book, I think this would be incorporated into the spirit of the egregore. meetings would have to have a dual nature where members would meet at one point and discuss new ideas, theories, abilities or rituals and how to do them. Then a second meeting would take place where the ritual would be performed. the first meeting could take place entirely on the vortex and the second in person. If the brain storming meetings were conducted in person we could also use this time to meet potential candidates and see what they are all about.

Novices could be chosen by members in the same way the AX does it. A candidate is matched with a mentor whom they have the most in common with. then grey areas are cleared up and whatever training courses we plan to use are given.

You had said that a candidate can stay in their trial as long as they like, but what do they gain from this? Everything I have read of initiations says that it must leave a mark, physical or mental.

Originality is key, trends and styles will be adopted randomly but some things should be put into place such as signs of grade and what not. I think that secrecy is a must in the area of written rituals and performances, Some members might be working on information for books that they share with the order expecting everyone to not steal the ideas or what not.

I was mainly thinking about an archavist as someone who will record what rituals are being done and what successes the group has. The idea of secret names and all that crossed my mind but I agree with a more lax attitude, why do we need to hide, especially when some members are attempting to build PR. I think it would be a cool idea for someone to manage a diary of all the rituals dreamed up for the order so that the public can see what we are doing and also to build interest.

Where is Drench? Why doesn't he post on here? I talked to him on Arcanorium a long time ago but he has not responded since then to any messages I have left him.

I thought we could rotate the magister templi position so everyone can get experience running a group effort!!! I would like to have some experience doing this but I also think that we should try and push every members ability to the max.

I like the idea of side degrees because they will have different courses of interest. This will leed to a honing of skill for all members. I think that you (Andrieh) and I could dream up some pretty worth wild training courses.

I think I understand your idea of the master of the Temple position. This would mean that anyone with this degree could run the temple and act as magister templi, have the opportunity to leed rituals and what have you.

Well, I agree with most of this, Leadership is key to a project like this. But Leadership is also sometimes a two way streak. Leadership is often mostly not tied to position aka when a person is in a position of leadership by organizational structure, and then uses that position to "courtail" other people's work with little benefit except for personally. What I mean by this is, leadership is important, but what happens when the leadership by position, as opposed to an abstract concept, uses that leadership to "counter" or curtail what would cause the order to grow. This is the problem of special positions, since well what happens when it is misused. Thats the issue. Enough structure to not stifle, but enough to actually have it work effectively.

Drench came up with localized officers ( and the magister templi's acting like representives that bring issues to vote on).. I like that idea. I mean most local issues, never should need to have a vote. Id rather see a temple of 12 split into 2 and have people continue to do magic and be in the order.. but that means we all have to be real fucking good about conflict resolution and negotiation. Again. How do you have a structure to negotiate, without a structure that can actually lead to abuse of position. I generally believe that the people in the local area best know how to solve local issues in most cases, except where people are fighting .....

Archivist assumes we have an Archive, which hasnt been decided. In most cases, while I want to discuss things in private, cause I know the "people" who arent interested will just get down on things... Mostly, I would like to do a fair amount of it publically. If we are not paranoid about security, we don't really have the names, private information of the members stored someplace.. mostly the Archivists job gets abstracted away through technology ( so we really need a set of willing technologists) and security roles on various web sites.

Likewise being a Priest of Chaos in the IOTNA already... is this needed? ( Simply in practice, I am not rebelling against the IOTNA, I actually would love if everyone joined the order as well).

These are tough questions. as far as Master of the Temple. I had thought this would be relatively permanant.. but this might mean another position for what I was intending ( which was more like a regional faciliator)..., I mean then you could have a national faciliator too. but then going up the food chain like that starts to look more and more like well the IOTNA :)

although in practive, its allways been the case that the Master of temple is the one who probably has the most magical experience, or the best vision for where things might go in a working group. Usually I have been in a position like this, cause I have lots of ideas. The problem is that they then do kinda have a shit ton more work and often do not get alot of help ( hence the insubordiante stuff). Its mostly a formal regconization of who is actually leading a working group, and who has the responsibility to keep it going. Thats very much a local group process ( and not much a whole order process). So you are dealing with a vote with 3-10 people at the most. Local working groups always being completely more organic then any structure might imply. I am all for a local group having whatever offices they want, and the bigger group recognizing titles but really it has little effect on the greater whole. To me they have always been more about someone inspiring others to work on something then actually the structure. People work together ina small local group, because they want to. People sign up for an order and work with a small local group since they believe they can get something out of the group/larger group. Usually the conflict is in Vision, direction, ... or ego fights. Getting rid of Ego fights ( as part of the great work). Vision is a fair reason to start a different local group. People usualy only are part of an order because they see it as useful or inspiring. Thus Inspiration and Leadership meld. The problem is how does that filter up to larger structures.

One of the challenges I see, is how to make things past the local organic groups matter. I do not have an answer. In most orders I have been part of, that are larger, in practice, the local organic groups are the order ( everything beyond that point, isnt really about the creativity or magic). I have not found a way out of this paradox... and actually any time the larger group impedes the local group, it usually doesn't not serve the interest of magical development. Actually usually it does the opposite, Some from this part of the country doesnt like this person... so they being in a position of power, dont let people get intiated that that person likes. Shit like that. As we are starting out, I probably would say the conflicting order members issue.
but that said maybe we need to focus on Mediation and a share mediation process ( DRENCH help me out here expert ) where parties aggree in advance to "aggree to follow the resolution" and maybe have a group of people. 1 person picks one person, 1 person picks a second person, a bunch of the magistrates or whatever pick a 3rd person.

So being self-serving. Lets Ignore Peter Carroll for a bit. Lets assume the structure of the PACT never existed. What would the order around HAnds On Chaos Magic look like? :p
Now I certainly havent got into a position, where I think basically, people should not be rigging
and the problem is that magic isnt the only thing that makes orders work.
ITs actually serivce
being of serivce to others or an idea in line with the egregoric vision, this is where although I think the stucture is not so good at times, the IOTNA got it right
someone who will has a van and will help set up an event is far more vaouable then soeone who summons demons all the time by themselves and doesnt share, or soemone who does web stuff for the group might be more valuable then a Magus who is very talented but may not want to share his insights.

Continued

I like the idea of three ofices to begin with, but I feel that more will arise with time. Some sort of side degrees like the priests of chaos in the IOTNA. This of course will be subject to a vote as all things will be in the order.

How long will the Master of the temple position be occupied? Will this person be responsible as the archivist? as the Magester templi? or just as a organizer of events? I think that there should be some sort of special exception offered to this person for the burden of taking this office. We should not make the mistake of allowing people to run for this sort of position, but instead make it a secret ballot where in all members write whom they think should take the office and then majority rules. Everyone writes down a name, it can be their own, then drops it into a hat (we can consecrate the hat) then whomever has the most votes win. I feel that this will disuade people from becoming combative lest it be by magickal means. and if they can rig the election by magick, then they deserve the position. wma ha ha ha ha. the special exception could be their vote counting as two or a personal gift from each of the other members which they create. something fun and creative.

I like the idea of creating a physical egregore. something which is made up of personal items from all members of the group. these can be magical weapons or other things.

Anyone have any ideas?

Anomaly

I like the keep is secret, not public idea. it is very empowering to not mutter the name of something, or at least have a cloud of mystery surrounding it.

It has taken me a few days to reply to this as I have come down with a case of the death flu and motivation is the first thing to go out the window when I get sick. I feel a little better now but I am still getting tired very easily.

Leadership is essential in a project such as this, without someone there to motivate situations to arise there will be no situation. I tend to side with the idea that leaders are born rather than made only due to the fact that some people tend to believe the idea that change is something which is impossible for a person to do and also because of the dreary common idea that a personality is somehow inherent at birth creating more resistance to change. ehhh, do i need to go into more detail here?

As an initiated member of the Autonomatrix, I will back up the idea that aside from the slowly growing book of shadows, the group is a joke. The German members do meet but what does that do for us here in the states? For the most part, I have seen nothing being done but rituals designed to draw more members to the egregore, do I have to go into more detail here either? Any and all assertions made toward doing something palpable with the egregore go unanswered. But it is nice to have a few well read individuals ready to offer up good book selections.

I enjoy Democracy, it allows everyone to be heard, even silence can be perceived as an expression of will within this structure. The trial should somehow be structured around the individual, lots of requests with no explanation to cause confusion and eventually breakthrough. this is one of the reasons that seclusion is important. I like the idea of having to produce results prior to the vote for membership, this will acts as a goad for the candidate to get results which is necessary in some instances as well as allow the members to assess the ability of the individual.

I am not sure exculsion is actually the way to go
Actually honestly, that seems to be be the biggest problem of hte IOTNA, that and overly structured.
Exclusion to a point, but maybe not to that level.

Heres what I saw in KIA
KIA worked when there was a strong local leadership ( aka me and someone else)
but there was little motivational factors to keep it going once the group had run its course
So outside of the "organizers". This actually worked extremely well and was extremely fluid
until a couple people moved away
so there wasnt must stability

The Automatrix
Never meets. internet orders in general DO not really work

The IOTNA, and I will say this in private but not public
is very structured.
6 months lead time for novices, and higher level structure problems means the order moves extremely slow.. perhaps to slow to adapt. As a whole it is a somewhat selfish ( not bad ) order. The grade order system breaks down in purpose for me after 3rd degree ( and mostly seems to lead to stupid power struggles). That said,

Here is my best guess for what might work.
Democratic system
Order membership with a period of trial.
Democratic simple vote of people to see who gets in with an imputus to let people in at 2/3rd vote, the idea is to let people in and get past personal difficulties
Partipents can stay in their trial as long as needed, but will be voted on via producable stuff on the forums and with in person meetings.
3/4 vote to remove someone from the order (in the case that it becomes fucking bad), but I doubt that will happen since I am suggesting a mostly decentralized system.
Three grades and thats it, ( name them at your will), Trial, Member, Master of temple )
Real intiations in person but personallized baptisms into the egregore, where two members have to be present and have to do it. (unless there is special conditions, which we can talk abotu).
Decisions mostly made by vote ( which if the people who are in the order don't participate, well then their voice doesn't count by their own choice).
Master of temple being just the person who just keeps the temple running and organized
No higher grades at all

ideas I would like to see supported ( some are self-serving)
-Hospitality ( aka we actually work as a group)
-Mutual magical and phsyical support.. originally the masons would hire masons over other masons, if there is a few authors supporting their classes in your city and around. AKA if we are not supporting our own it doesnt seem to matter to me.... its a name only thing.
I dont know what else to say.

Hello All,

I agree that exclusion is key, we need to have some sort of screening and or testing process in order to admit candidates. I do believe that this is why the IOT has prospered in the past. An initial meet up should be arranged with all candidates as well, so as to size them up and see what they are all about, work on weak spots and push the potential of the group to the highest standards.

Also, I like all of the negative issues you have raised with free classes OZ, which is why I propose the grade structure. A grade structure based on accomplishment and knowledge is more worth wild than any teacher because if affords the student the chance to work with an individual whom has already accomplished what they are setting out to do. All those who have been initiated would have expressed and proved an honest desire to learn, practice and improve i.e. not waste our fucking time in the process.

Anomaly

Formal classes are more realistic even for the students which would certainly explain why this other "school" didn't go very far as both students and teachers did not apply themselves to the purpose. I notice that people do not find value in something that they do not work towards.

A private forum for discussion of various topics would be perfect. Any astral work we do together would also have value on a private forum rather than in the public so that people who are genuinely interested in these workings express explicit interest and are given the avenues to be an active part of the working rather than a bystander who is merely interested. Private access, as well as formal construction, shows initiative.

~Soror Oz

maybe it will, be a learning center, but I am teaching at Arcanium in the UK now, mostly Our interaction teaches, or can, and certainly the whole process could be geared..
Orginally, thats what The Order of the Prismatic Vortex was about....
Formal classes, I probably have an issue with free classes ( since not just me , but Everyone's tine is valuable, its one of the things that dives me nuts with paganism. Damn I work hard to figure some of this out).

I will make a private non-google readable forum. If you guys want access to it just ask, then we can discuss it further,
but I want the discussions at least not searchable, or like publically avialble, so people are free to say what they are thinking.

Love it. Totally on board. Acquiring funds and the like for meets. Was going to purchase new computer... but is that really necessary when I already have two? Naw, I think I'm putting my gold toward the meets. I'd love to see something come of the Prismatic Vortex as a group working.

Already planning to meet Anomoly in *very* near future, but have to make sure I get all me ducks in a row. Regardless of how long it takes, would like to stay in contact with everyone here (well I think that's a given and not a problem in the least!)

**Prismatic Vortex Possibilities**

I'm also curious about some input on the possible idea of offering a free "school" format for learning magicians of open-source materials and expressions of personal experiences for the purpose of learning. This should be topic based and placed in it's own section if this is a worth-while idea. I attempted to join a "free school" group that turned out to be more of an ego trip (a group which seemed only to advertise itself as a solid concept in its goals) than a school... However, I did meet people there who were interested in learning what this so-called "school" did not actually have to offer. I have a few names on board of those interested in this idea and even a few who expressed to me in private that if something like this were started, they'd be all for it. This could be good for Prismatic Vortex assuming that these individuals are still interested. I'd jump at the chance to PR the Vortex as a possible learning space. This wouldn't be "my" project but "our" project in terms of the egregore. I'd love to see more people discussing, learning, and sharing on the Vortex. This of course would spawn a greater interest in meet-ups of a larger group.

I have ideas pertaining to other avenues but I am interested in your thoughts on this one firstly =)

-Best-
Z

Theres a couple things
FIRST, I am not leaving the IOTNA
in fact if people are interested in that please contact me, and I WILL get you in the right people
THE IOTNA is one of the finest magical orders ever
Period. It is a real honor to be part of it, and really this is not the same thing... I would totally encourage people who are really talented to apply to the IOTNA,
I wont lie, sure we do have interpersonal issues as any group does, but the truth is that these are some of the best magicians on the planet.

You simply can not do better, and you will have opportunities to see the best magicians work on the planet..

But there is certain practical aspects that I see differently after the Reality Manipulation Boot camp. Sometimes the best, isn't what is needed on the ground. And at the point people are starting to suggest group dream work, and the epople I know are fucking hugely committed magicians, I start to think... hmmm.. soemthing is happening and I am not really intiating it, but should "tend it"

at least with 5-6 people. and in general more then that... here
Here is what I see.
first at the picnic in detroit people announced and introduced themselves as this person from Prismatic Vortex, which is not usually how forums work, usually what happens in forums stays there
thats not happening here, people actually are CALLIng each other to talk about shit on the forums, in a positive way.
Second, The odd psychic coincidence between me and Zero-One, Anomoly and Zero one, Solstice and Anomoly, Sostice and me, Drench and a bunch of others...and in fact I WOULD tell Potato he wasnt banishing right ( probably cause he was half assing it) in a dream
Third, the odd thing about this forum, is that alot of the people on it LIKE meeting, there is an sort a underlying "MEET in person vibe if possible" to the forums.

I personally think I have met 80% of the people who have posted more then 20 posts. Thats insane for a just a forum. The OTO would love to boast such numbers.

Hi Everyone,

I have had the pleasure of working with some of you and I think this would be a good idea. I am always looking for more goads to magical success. This forum has some of the most talented and creative individuals I have ever met. I think it would be a grave injustice if we didn't put something together. Something based on results. It is time for the virtual guild the world deserves to manifest. We will not need to draw members through ritual work, they will hear of our accomplishments and come banging down our doors!!!

Sorry, Im a bit dramatic sometimes...

Anomaly